Just one question about Vagrant Story...

[Raijin]

Fatigue, I saw in the Sakuraba section of this board you hinted that Sakimoto has orchestrated himself the VG Staff Roll??

Can you confirm this? I didnt know that and if true, I'm truly impressed.

[Fatigue]

Fatigue, I saw in the Sakuraba section of this board you hinted that Sakimoto has orchestrated himself the VG Staff Roll??

Can you confirm this? I didnt know that and if true, I'm truly impressed.

Yes, Sakimoto did orchestrate "Staff Roll" from Vagrant Story. However, it wasn't so much as an 'orchestration' as the only live instruments are Masatsugu Shinozaki's string group. Sakimoto write the string section of the piece individually from the rest of the synthesized instruments. :)

[Lierre]

Yes, Sakimoto did orchestrate "Staff Roll" from Vagrant Story. However, it wasn't so much as an 'orchestration' as the only live instruments are Masatsugu Shinozaki's string group. Sakimoto write the string section of the piece individually from the rest of the synthesized instruments. :)

You would be right because only conductor and strings player are credited in liner note and we can find no orchestrator. Still, I was surprised brass instruments and percussion weren't played actually.

[Ovelia]

Still, I was surprised brass instruments and percussion weren't played actually.

Oh REALLY? :( I thought that was live too...

[Raijin]

Yes, Sakimoto did orchestrate "Staff Roll" from Vagrant Story. However, it wasn't so much as an 'orchestration' as the only live instruments are Masatsugu Shinozaki's string group. Sakimoto write the string section of the piece individually from the rest of the synthesized instruments. :)

Hm there was synth? I thought It was all live instrument...?

[Lierre]

I said it wasn't played live because no performer other than strings player are written in liner note.
Of course, they might be forgotten to credit.
I also think brass and percussion also weren't synthesized instruments.

[Fatigue]

I said it wasn't played live because no performer other than strings player are written in liner note.
Of course, they might be forgotten to credit.
I also think brass and percussion also weren't synthesized instruments.

Nah, they are synthesized. Square Enix wouldn't miss out credits on their soundtracks if there were already some there. Believe me, the same thing happens on the Legend of Mana soundtrack where Shinozaki's group is mentioned as the string group for the track "Legend of Mana ~ Title Theme", but the rest is synth. :(

[Lierre]

Nah, they are synthesized. Square Enix wouldn't miss out credits on their soundtracks if there were already some there. Believe me, the same thing happens on the Legend of Mana soundtrack where Shinozaki's group is mentioned as the string group for the track "Legend of Mana ~ Title Theme", but the rest is synth. :(

Yeah, I always have so much faith in what you say.:)
You would be right.
It's just those brasses and percussions sound too good for me.

[RinoaDestiny]

Yeah, I always have so much faith in what you say.:)
You would be right.
It's just those brasses and percussions sound too good for me.

The brass and percussion sound so realistic for synths - it's quite unbelievable. I would have loved for it to be a full orchestral piece, instead of just the strings, but hey, it sure sounds like it is. :cool:

[Raijin]

Nah, they are synthesized. Square Enix wouldn't miss out credits on their soundtracks if there were already some there. Believe me, the same thing happens on the Legend of Mana soundtrack where Shinozaki's group is mentioned as the string group for the track "Legend of Mana ~ Title Theme", but the rest is synth. :(


Wow I always thought It was all live, I mean the other instruments sounded so good... O_o

[Jormungand]

If this is true, then this is the most convincing synth of its time. But it isn't.

There's no way most if not all of the instruments here are performed live. I work with this stuff everyday and I know my orchestral performances. Just because the individual sections weren't spelled out in the liner notes means relatively little. I am guessing that the contracted string group simply did some contracting of their own for some outside players to complete the ensemble. They do studio performances for a living, so it's more than likely they have their own contacts for other instrumental sections.

The only instrument I was occasionally unsure of is the trumpet--but I think it's more from scrutinizing too much. The most indicative moments are the tuba solo and the flute/oboe chord at the end.

[Fatigue]

So, basically, you are eliminating the fact that the linear notes of the album are false and denying the possibility that it is synth?

Basically, if that's the case, the exact same situation is present on Legend of Mana. Go check for yourself, it says "Strings by Shinozaki Group; Piano by Sanae Hatori". It's quite obvious that the rest of the instruments in the track are synth. If you are saying that they are live in "Staff Roll", why not credit more performers. It would be classed as 'unorthodox' of Square Enix considering a full orchestra is credited on the Final Fantasy VIII, IX, X and XI OSTs with the same string group. Let's not forget, 3 synthesizer operators worked on Vagrant Story, and the background sound staff is larger than the most PlayStation era games. The only exception to this Square Enix rule is the lack of crediting of the FFXII orchestra in the linear notes of the soundtrack (although, they are fully credited in game).

Not to mention, great sound samples were available back then, and of course, it was possible for the sampling of live instruments.

I'm not saying you're wrong, Jorm, but the likelihood that the linear notes, which were written by members of Square Sounds, are correct is much higher than saying 'possibilities'. :)

I'll be sticking by what the album says unless I get hard proof.

[Jormungand]

As if liners are always errorless...

Hard evidence or none, I can almost always tell the difference between live and synth--especially when it pertains to particular composers. Sakimoto is great at sequencing, but he's never convinced to the point where I'm unsure what I'm hearing. Even these days when there's highly realistic synth available, Sakimoto never uses any. I'm not really sure what libraries he uses, but they are in no way the peak of current technology (not even the peak of hobbyist technology).

As for 'great sound samples', sure, but why wouldn't they have been used elsewhere in the album? And where were these samples on everything else Square produced in the late 90s? Vagrant Story had Square's best orchestral synth of its time, but if there were better, we'd know about it (and hear it).

And I'm not sure what having 3 synth operators have to do with anything (and there were actually 4). Anyway, there was only one main synth guy--Ishimoto. The other three played minor roles.

Speaking of the liner notes. "Opening Movie" specifically lists a synth programmer. Following this logic as well as the claim that the Square guys don't miss a beat, why wouldn't a synth programmer be listed under "Staff Roll"? Even if it were one of the previous, they'd of still listed it to make it a full listing.

You're welcome to prove me wrong, but until I see hard proof, I'll be sticking to my ears.

[Garamond]

I have a not-so-strong proof to Fatigue's point. Listen to the Vagrant Story PSF "unknown 117" and you may realize something conneting to the Staff Roll track.

[Fatigue]

As if liners are always errorless...

Linear notes aren't always errorless, but 98% of the time, they are. And missing an entire orchestra is one big, not to mention embarrassing, error. Most people, including you, trust linear notes on what they say because the fact that they do provide accurate information. The only errors I see in linear notes are the misspelling of names. I reiterate, missing an orchestra seems to be a pretty embarrassing error. Wouldn't you agree?


Hard evidence or none, I can almost always tell the difference between live and synth--especially when it pertains to particular composers. Sakimoto is great at sequencing, but he's never convinced to the point where I'm unsure what I'm hearing. Even these days when there's highly realistic synth available, Sakimoto never uses any. I'm not really sure what libraries he uses, but they are in no way the peak of current technology (not even the peak of hobbyist technology).

I can usually tell the difference between live and synthetic, however, there are those off chances. Sakimoto's library isn't complex, it's a pretty good, albeit expensive libary, with a variety of different samples. I still don't see how this means 'it's for certain live'.


As for 'great sound samples', sure, but why wouldn't they have been used elsewhere in the album? And where were these samples on everything else Square produced in the late 90s? Vagrant Story had Square's best orchestral synth of its time, but if there were better, we'd know about it (and hear it).

My best explanation for this would probably be hardward issues, but I nor anyone not connected directly through Square Enix could answer this.


And I'm not sure what having 3 synth operators have to do with anything (and there were actually 4). Anyway, there was only one main synth guy--Ishimoto. The other three played minor roles.

Yes, you are right. There are 4, however Watanabe (who is known for programming sound for pre-Vagrant Story games, including Xenogears and Final Fantasy Tactics), isn't credited to one particular track, so I'd consider him a 'helper' (or as 'additional' like the notes say). Perhaps Watanabe with help of Kenzi Nagashima (who is known for his recording and engineering techniques on practically all Square Enix games, including improving the quality of about 5 tracks on Final Fantasy Tactics – a synth score) created a more solid sound scape for the track? It's very possible that he added a masking effect over the synthesized instruments to provide a make-believe live effect. Not to mention that the operators could've helped each other out during the score (as known for in the past).


Speaking of the liner notes. "Opening Movie" specifically lists a synth programmer. Following this logic as well as the claim that the Square guys don't miss a beat, why wouldn't a synth programmer be listed under "Staff Roll"? Even if it were one of the previous, they'd of still listed it to make it a full listing.

The answer to that would be what's the point when Ishimoto is credited for the entire score (as with Watanabe)?


You're welcome to prove me wrong, but until I see hard proof, I'll be sticking to my ears.

I guess there is no solution to this problem. I'll see if I can get hold of Sakimoto again and see if he can provide a solid answer.

[Lierre]

As for 'great sound samples', sure, but why wouldn't they have been used elsewhere in the album?

I guess it's explainable because all tracks except Opening Movie and Ending Movie were sequenced in only 512KB of sound memory.
Anyway, if we continue this discussion any more, we had better try to find any evidence. :)

[SakiMojo]

I was curious if anyone here knew that Sakimoto mostly uses the whole tone scale for this album. The whole tone scale has a dark, dreamy type of sound - which is how the soundtrack sounds.

[KujaFFman]

I have a not-so-strong proof to Fatigue's point. Listen to the Vagrant Story PSF "unknown 117" and you may realize something conneting to the Staff Roll track.
Could this be the synthesized part of the Staff Roll? I'm comparing right now and it seems to do it, although partially (I mean, this is not the whole staff roll).

[Jormungand]

Garamond, you're right, that would be a (synthesized) phrase from Staff Roll, although it's not the same data. Even sped up they sound pretty different.


Sakimoto's library isn't complex, it's a pretty good, albeit expensive libary, with a variety of different samples. I still don't see how this means 'it's for certain live'.
Oh, so you must know his library? I'd love to know what it consists of.

And it doesn't make it a certainty, that's not what I was getting at. It appears to me you don't have a lot of experience with sequencing or you'd understand what I mean. Sakimoto has never fooled me into thinking something in a track of his is performed live, whereas say... I'm often unable to tell the difference at face-value with one of Hamauzu's more modern work. This is partially due to sound samples...Hamauzu has something more top of the line, along the way of EWQL libraries. Even Sakimoto's newest material is clearly synth.


It's very possible that he added a masking effect over the synthesized instruments to provide a make-believe live effect.
I hate you see you treading in the water there, so I'll help you out: in the audio world, "masking effect" is as broad a term as there is. The most common way to add depth to synthesized instruments is reverb (or in some cases delay offset) and frequency mods (like chorus, pitch offsets for vibrato, etc). You're making a pretty weak case by delving into knowledge that I'm not entirely sure you possess with things like "masking effect" and "make-believe live". I know you like to maintain an authorative manner on VGM throughout the community, but using empty terminology isn't exactly one of the best ways to do so.

Otherwise, there really isn't any way to tell for sure. The more I listen the more I'm skeptical, although I'm still thrown off by the tuba and wind chord at the end. I'm willing to submit that what's there is indeed all programmed, but that's one hell of a feat, and I wonder why the audio guys haven't yet received the coveted award for Awesomeness.

And by the way, unless I'm on the wrong side of the world, the little blurbs that appear inside of an album booklet don't have anything to do with linear geometry.

[Fatigue]

And it doesn't make it a certainty, that's not what I was getting at. It appears to me you don't have a lot of experience with sequencing or you'd understand what I mean. Sakimoto has never fooled me into thinking something in a track of his is performed live, whereas say... I'm often unable to tell the difference at face-value with one of Hamauzu's more modern work. This is partially due to sound samples...Hamauzu has something more top of the line, along the way of EWQL libraries. Even Sakimoto's newest material is clearly synth.

I don't have a lot of experience in technological side of audio production software (despite owning some pretty high range recording and sequencing programs), and I recognize the differences between streaming and sequencing data. I did see your point, however it wasn't a statement which was worth rebutting against, although I tried to add input.


I hate you see you treading in the water there, so I'll help you out: in the audio world, "masking effect" is as broad a term as there is. The most common way to add depth to synthesized instruments is reverb (or in some cases delay offset) and frequency mods (like chorus, pitch offsets for vibrato, etc). You're making a pretty weak case by delving into knowledge that I'm not entirely sure you possess with things like "masking effect" and "make-believe live". I know you like to maintain an authorative manner on VGM throughout the community, but using empty terminology isn't exactly one of the best ways to do so.

Unless there is a blatantly obvious effect which is used, how would I know what to class an effect in? Using "masking effect" as a term doesn't make the argument any less meaningful, especially considering the broad range of effects there are to use, and considering the original statement wasn’t intended on going deep into the subject. I don't think bringing in my community status is really relevant here.


And by the way, unless I'm on the wrong side of the world, the little blurbs that appear inside of an album booklet don't have anything to do with linear geometry.

I don't quite understand this point.

[Rain Corale]

I was curious if anyone here knew that Sakimoto mostly uses the whole tone scale for this album. The whole tone scale has a dark, dreamy type of sound - which is how the soundtrack sounds.

You can bet your arse! ;) I haven't seen any of the written score but the wholetone scales are what often give the music that edgy sound. I sat down at the piano one day and played a few tracks (from memory) and more or less realized that some of it falls within that scale framework. I believe he is using a ton of tritones as well...

[SakiMojo]

You can bet your arse! ;) I haven't seen any of the written score but the wholetone scales are what often give the music that edgy sound. I sat down at the piano one day and played a few tracks (from memory) and more or less realized that some of it falls within that scale framework. I believe he is using a ton of tritones as well...

when i used to be in a metal band and wrote tons of riffs, i like to use the whole tone scale to give that dark, edgey, dreamy sound. gotta love it.

[Origin]

I don't quite understand this point.

Linear

adj 1: designating or involving an equation whose terms are of the first degree

2: of or in or along or relating to a line; involving a single dimension; "a linear foot"

I'm glad Jormungand pointed it out since it was kind of starting to drive me crazy (yeah, I'm a bit of a spelling/grammar nazi). Unless there's some alternate spelling in Australia that I'm not aware of, it's spelt "liner".

[Lierre]

The detail would be posted later, but yes, I was wrong.:(
I apologize for the rudeness.
It remains a mystery who arranged and orchestrated this, though.

[Fatigue]

Indeed, most of the track is actually live (minus a few lesser important percussion parts - e.g triangle), and they could not credit the extra performers because of the many organizations they were from. Looks like I was wrong. :(