VGM Composers, Jazz, Talent vs. Skill and Whatnot!

[Jormungand]

A critical listening to Elegy for the Bewildered for anyone who can appreciate piano music should set things straight.
Interesting. I appreciate piano music to an inexplicable degree, yet I still don't like Sakuraba.

Real piano music is Hamauzu as far as video games go. Please, be careful with the derivative words of "appreciation". Asking me to recognize that Sakuraba is talented because he wrote something you feel any piano appreciator should like is akin to telling me that, being appreciative of jazz, I should like the Rockman X or F-Zero arrange albums (which approach no real depth of jazz by a longshot).

Of what I've heard, Sakuraba has never done anything that's been particularly wonderful or innovative (let alone anything notable for piano). Also, blending symphonic and rock isn't a new convention. And usually, it's junk.

I admit to liking some of his work. Namely from Tales of Phantasia, and some from Star Ocean 3. But to tell the truth, I didn't want to enter this conversation but did so anyway against my better judgement. Being a music major as well, I can safely say that being a music major doesn't really mean much besides that I'm going to be poor. I'm a composer as well, so I'm just as picky. Sakuraba just doesn't impress me. Too much dry progrock everywhere you look. But actually, I prefer his progrock to his orchestral music, which quite literally has driven me to physical illness (Star Ocean 2....ugh).

As for the "bashers"... yeah, I guess I am one by whatever standards seem to place me into that category, but I'm not unreasonable about it. I am very very very concerned about the state of VGM as it begins another very important evolution. Sakuraba just doesn't have a place in the frontline with the true talent. He can make music that is effective and viable, but until he comes out with something groundbreaking, I have no reason to be a fan of his (though I promise to never dismiss something by him before I've heard it, just because it's by him).

[aznmusikboi]

Interesting. I appreciate piano music to an inexplicable degree, yet I still don't like Sakuraba.

Real piano music is Hamauzu as far as video games go. Please, be careful with the derivative words of "appreciation". Asking me to recognize that Sakuraba is talented because he wrote something you feel any piano appreciator should like is akin to telling me that, being appreciative of jazz, I should like the Rockman X or F-Zero arrange albums (which approach no real depth of jazz by a longshot).

Of what I've heard, Sakuraba has never done anything that's been particularly wonderful or innovative (let alone anything notable for piano). Also, blending symphonic and rock isn't a new convention. And usually, it's junk.

I admit to liking some of his work. Namely from Tales of Phantasia, and some from Star Ocean 3. But to tell the truth, I didn't want to enter this conversation but did so anyway against my better judgement. Being a music major as well, I can safely say that being a music major doesn't really mean much besides that I'm going to be poor. I'm a composer as well, so I'm just as picky. Sakuraba just doesn't impress me. Too much dry progrock everywhere you look. But actually, I prefer his progrock to his orchestral music, which quite literally has driven me to physical illness (Star Ocean 2....ugh).

As for the "bashers"... yeah, I guess I am one by whatever standards seem to place me into that category, but I'm not unreasonable about it. I am very very very concerned about the state of VGM as it begins another very important evolution. Sakuraba just doesn't have a place in the frontline with the true talent. He can make music that is effective and viable, but until he comes out with something groundbreaking, I have no reason to be a fan of his (though I promise to never dismiss something by him before I've heard it, just because it's by him).


The reasons I used Elegy as an example (other than the fact that I think it's a very piviotal work in terms of VGM piano music) is because besides the fact that it's a showpiece that very few people might be able to play (how many pieces in even the standard repertoire go over 8 min?), it has very defintite form (worthy of study in a Form and Analysis class, i think), and it is unique from even other VGM piano pieces in its incorporation of different types of harmonies (modal, diatonic and of course, atonal and even a bit of pentatonic).

I didn't use the word "appreciate" as a substitution for the word 'like', I meant it in the academic sense of the word, as in "music appreciation class". And i sure as hell didn't come to like the uber-conventional, completely objective and absolute music of say, Mozart any more after taking it, and at that, I might add that music like that has been stuck in the academia of music schools so long that it just sort of makes me sick. Elegy is so much more than Mozart's usual I-V-I (which is basically the bulk of what it is when you put it through something like Schenkerian analysis).

Hamauzu is good in his own right, but I've played a lot of his piano arrangements and the forms are actually quite traditional (ABA A'B'C A...etc). Whoops! it's no surprise since he was born and raised in Germany. I honestly don't believe that he's the best, but he is certainly good with what he dishes out.

Jazz. Well...for some people (including myself) jazz works as a set of harmonic/rhythmic options and not an entire full blown genre in and of itself. The reason I say that is because I've played stuff that sounds particularly jazzy but it would never be labeled a jazz tune by any of the jazz majors at my school (a mere example: the Piano Collections arrangement of Eyes on Me from FF8). When you over simplifiy jazz, it's basically a set of modal harmonies and progressions come basically down to ii-V-I when you eliminate all the non-chord tones.

Symphonic (prog) rock...yes, over here and in Europe its often abused, but in general the Japanese know how to do it right. Maybe more so in the 90's. And i'm not even limiting that to VGM music. Try rock bands like X-japan. That was classical + metal at its finest. I wouldn't know any other VGM composers in the genre because most of them are simply pretty polarized on whether to use acoustic/symphonic elements or electric sounds for particular projects.

Honestly, I don't think it's fair to any composer at all to dismiss at least the quality of their work without critical listening. Yes I may fall asleep to things like Mozart and Haydn, but they were masters for what they did at their time and at the very least I can recognize that they had reasons for everything they wrote. Don't bash someone's music simply because you don't 'get' it.

Don't be surprised when anyone, but expecially Sakuraba comes out with sub-par stuff once in a while. All composers have periods in their lives where they have compositional setback (or composer's block, if you'd like). But unlike the baroque and classical periods, we live in times where even composers have to put food on the table regardless of what they can come up with musically, but I'm sure that doesnt mean people like Sakuraba aren't composing to the best of their ablilities. Living in such a busy and fast-paced world, it really is hard to get the inspiration, strength and creativity to write good music, which is why my respect for him is even higher than usual.

[Jormungand]

I didn't use the word "appreciate" as a substitution for the word 'like', I meant it in the academic sense of the word, as in "music appreciation class". And i sure as hell didn't come to like the uber-conventional, completely objective and absolute music of say, Mozart any more after taking it, and at that, I might add that music like that has been stuck in the academia of music schools so long that it just sort of makes me sick. Elegy is so much more than Mozart's usual I-V-I (which is basically the bulk of what it is when you put it through something like Schenkerian analysis).
Yeah uh...I know exactly what you meant. Appreciation and liking are two very different things, and never once did I suggest I believe the two are interchangeable.


Hamauzu is good in his own right, but I've played a lot of his piano arrangements and the forms are actually quite traditional (ABA A'B'C A...etc). Whoops! it's no surprise since he was born and raised in Germany. I honestly don't believe that he's the best, but he is certainly good with what he dishes out.
Form is a placeholder, nothing more. Hamauzu's brilliance lies in his gift of color and texture, and his piano pieces are blushed with tonal hues few other modern composers have even approached (least of all, Sakuraba). Most of his music is anything but traditional. As for the Germany thing... exactly what makes you think that had any influence on his style? He got his music training in Japan. He has also stated that French music has had a heavy influence on him. His truly classical forays are the only suggestions of German sensibility, and those don't happen terribly often (his most classical piece to date is SF2's Trubsal).


Jazz. Well...for some people (including myself) jazz works as a set of harmonic/rhythmic options and not an entire full blown genre in and of itself. The reason I say that is because I've played stuff that sounds particularly jazzy but it would never be labeled a jazz tune by any of the jazz majors at my school (a mere example: the Piano Collections arrangement of Eyes on Me from FF8). When you over simplifiy jazz, it's basically a set of modal harmonies and progressions come basically down to ii-V-I when you eliminate all the non-chord tones.
Jazz...isn't a genre? I have no idea how someone who actually has musical training could make such a statement. Sounds like you've never played real jazz, as opposed to that which is "jazzy". The VGM world is the last place to turn for good jazz.


Honestly, I don't think it's fair to any composer at all to dismiss at least the quality of their work without critical listening. Yes I may fall asleep to things like Mozart and Haydn, but they were masters for what they did at their time and at the very least I can recognize that they had reasons for everything they wrote. Don't bash someone's music simply because you don't 'get' it.
I'm glad we agree, but it sounds like this is being directed at me personally?


Living in such a busy and fast-paced world, it really is hard to get the inspiration, strength and creativity to write good music, which is why my respect for him is even higher than usual.
And that's about why I don't like him--because he just can't breach the barrier separating those that have the skillset and those that have the skillset and talent.

[aznmusikboi]

Yeah uh...I know exactly what you meant. Appreciation and liking are two very different things, and never once did I suggest I believe the two are interchangeable.


Form is a placeholder, nothing more. Hamauzu's brilliance lies in his gift of color and texture, and his piano pieces are blushed with tonal hues few other modern composers have even approached (least of all, Sakuraba). Most of his music is anything but traditional. As for the Germany thing... exactly what makes you think that had any influence on his style? He got his music training in Japan. He has also stated that French music has had a heavy influence on him. His truly classical forays are the only suggestions of German sensibility, and those don't happen terribly often (his most classical piece to date is SF2's Trubsal).


Jazz...isn't a genre? I have no idea how someone who actually has musical training could make such a statement. Sounds like you've never played real jazz, as opposed to that which is "jazzy". The VGM world is the last place to turn for good jazz.


I'm glad we agree, but it sounds like this is being directed at me personally?


And that's about why I don't like him--because he just can't breach the barrier separating those that have the skillset and those that have the skillset and talent.


That's odd. The bios I've read of Hamauzu stated that he started getting acquainted with music in Germany. In Japan he did enroll in the Tokyo National University of Fine Arts and Music, but don't you think it takes a good amount of preparation/training before that (many years worth at that)?

No i wasn't aiming anything directly at you, but from your choice of pharsing it still seems as if you think Hamauzu is superior to Sakuraba (correct me if I"m wrong). They have different influences as we've established, therefore it's totally acceptable that they have different compositional styles.

Perhaps I was a bit vague on the word "traditional". I didn't mean Baroque traditional, even though at times Sakuraba incorporates Baroque elements in his music (which I might add isn't an easy thing to do well). Hamauzu (yes, I left out his chosen influences, sorry) has been said to be reminiscent of Chopin, but Sakuraba uses complete atonality, something that's been done since the end of the Romantic period, so in a sense Hamauzu is still a bit more "traditional" if compared to Sakuraba. But of course that doesn't necessarily make him better. Different skillsets, different talent, which I'm sure Sakuraba doesn't lack, after being able to crank out a piece like Elegy.

I never said jazz wasn't a genre. Some people hear things differently and there's no right or wrong interpretation of it. Many people don't venture that deep into jazz because of all the dissonances involved. Heck, I was told by my theory professor that Mozart wrote a letter to his father and in it he wrote a C9 chord and said that wasn't music, it was 'noise' and that there are boundaries that seperate noise from music. But i personally don't dismiss it completely.


I don't see much of a difference between skill and talent, other than the fact that skill is learned and talent is something you'ore born with. But people who spend the time to develop skill are just as good and legitimate as those who are born with the talent. In a sense their skill is worth more than born talent, because they've actually taken the time and labor to work for it.

[Jormungand]

That's odd. The bios I've read of Hamauzu stated that he started getting acquainted with music in Germany. In Japan he did enroll in the Tokyo National University of Fine Arts and Music, but don't you think it takes a good amount of preparation/training before that (many years worth at that)?
Indeed. But I was trying to point out that, if anything, his music tends to lean to the French side of things more than German. But honestly, his style doesn't fall into any definite regional construct.


No i wasn't aiming anything directly at you, but from your choice of pharsing it still seems as if you think Hamauzu is superior to Sakuraba (correct me if I"m wrong). They have different influences as we've established, therefore it's totally acceptable that they have different compositional styles.
While I don't like using words like "superior", yeah, I definetely find Hamauzu to be infinetely more talented than Sakuraba.


Perhaps I was a bit vague on the word "traditional". I didn't mean Baroque traditional, even though at times Sakuraba incorporates Baroque elements in his music (which I might add isn't an easy thing to do well). Hamauzu (yes, I left out his chosen influences, sorry) has been said to be reminiscent of Chopin, but Sakuraba uses complete atonality, something that's been done since the end of the Romantic period, so in a sense Hamauzu is still a bit more "traditional" if compared to Sakuraba.
I find this troublesome. We are talking about the world of VGM, where Sakuraba's style is much closer to the convention than Hamauzu's.


Heck, I was told by my theory professor that Mozart wrote a letter to his father and in it he wrote a C9 chord and said that wasn't music, it was 'noise' and that there are boundaries that seperate noise from music. But i personally don't dismiss it completely.
Well, Mozart would say something like that. Were it not for the fact of his era, I'd have some things to say about such a ridiculous statement.


I don't see much of a difference between skill and talent, other than the fact that skill is learned and talent is something you'ore born with. But people who spend the time to develop skill are just as good and legitimate as those who are born with the talent.
This is crucial. You even outlined the main point--skill can be acquired, talent cannot. Sakuraba has the skillset, and he's never failed to demonstrate that. But talent is where the practioners are separated from the masters. When a composer rejects the mold of convention to search for his or her own voice... well, those are the best composers. I find that Sakuraba, while indeed having a recognizable style, has not done much to break out of the mold. This is where my entire argument originates, and why I don't like his music. Anyone can develop the skillset. But anyone can't have the talent that's going to make their music stand out.


In a sense their skill is worth more than born talent, because they've actually taken the time and labor to work for it.
I just can't see the justification for this. How can objective skill be weighed against inherent talent? If I worked all through school working toward a master's degree in architecture, yet lack the talent of abstract conception, am I really going to be of any particular use?

In the world of art, all a skillset gets you is to the average mark. Talent is the catalyst that allows that formula to yield results that exceed the average.

[aznmusikboi]

Indeed. But I was trying to point out that, if anything, his music tends to lean to the French side of things more than German. But honestly, his style doesn't fall into any definite regional construct.


While I don't like using words like "superior", yeah, I definetely find Hamauzu to be infinetely more talented than Sakuraba.


I find this troublesome. We are talking about the world of VGM, where Sakuraba's style is much closer to the convention than Hamauzu's.


Well, Mozart would say something like that. Were it not for the fact of his era, I'd have some things to say about such a ridiculous statement.



This is crucial. You even outlined the main point--skill can be acquired, talent cannot. Sakuraba has the skillset, and he's never failed to demonstrate that. But talent is where the practioners are separated from the masters. When a composer rejects the mold of convention to search for his or her own voice... well, those are the best composers. I find that Sakuraba, while indeed having a recognizable style, has not done much to break out of the mold. This is where my entire argument originates, and why I don't like his music. Anyone can develop the skillset. But anyone can't have the talent that's going to make their music stand out.


I just can't see the justification for this. How can objective skill be weighed against inherent talent? If I worked all through school working toward a master's degree in architecture, yet lack the talent of abstract conception, am I really going to be of any particular use?

In the world of art, all a skillset gets you is to the average mark. Talent is the catalyst that allows that formula to yield results that exceed the average.


If he sounds too conventional for you then that's fine. I see a few things in his work that not many people do, but then again I probably listen to a lot of different music than you, so it probably just boils down to an issue of exposure.

You have a good points about skill and talent. I don't advocate comparing the two outright, I was just trying to clarify the difference, at least the way I define it. However, I do think we wouldn't have as much music out there (in whatever range of quality) if composers with strictly talent were to solely write music. Heck, in some ways Beethoven was more about skill than talent; one of his influences was Mozart (who could write an entire symphony on the spot), yet he was the type to erase 50 measures and slave away at reconstructing ideas for months at a time to perfection. Which was perfectly fine because the economic situations of those times aloud for that in addition to being able to put food on the table. Obviously lifestyles have changed since then and deadlines + business ususally means a different approach to any art, including music. Hence why there's so much trash out there (in general) but I think Sakuraba in particular stays clear above what I would label as trash.

Some people aren't born with the talent but still have the love for music, which is why everything's been academically structured so that the rest of us lower beings could learn about it. Of course acquiring the skills doesn't mean crap. But what makes skilled people comparable is when they start to use critical thinking and actually apply all that they've learned into their work. You either have talent or you don't, but skill is just as polarized. There are people who've quit music (not just at my school but in general around my social circles) out of a variety of reasons related to just not being able to play, or even do basic theory. Some people just don't have the ability to play music, but their skill/talent lies elsewhere in other fields. Everyone knows Mozart was a musical genious but few realize that he was pretty much an idiot when it came to almost every other aspect of life. But anyway....

I suppose if you wanted to rephrase the relationship between skill and talent, talent would be already possessing the skills needed. Whereas skill in this case is learned. Honestly, it's the same set of skills, they're just acquired manually in the first case. Takes a bit longer but it's just as valid, provided that there's careful thought behind it and its use.

Architecture is a science, and music is an art. They might share a few principles here and there but for the most part they're almost completely unrelated. Science and mathematics have absolutes while music is probably one of the most subjective arts in existence. If you played Bach in Lithuania people just won't 'get it' the way we do, or if we took jazz to the rural areas of Vietnam. People just hear things differently, and music theory is a somewhat standard (but in many ways poor) way of organizing everything into a body of work that people can study and communicate with. And at that, it only works with 'Western' music.

But even if you did get a master's in architecture, I'm sure you'd learn enough during the course of those years to actually do something in the field.

[Jormungand]

If he sounds too conventional for you then that's fine. I see a few things in his work that not many people do, but then again I probably listen to a lot of different music than you, so it probably just boils down to an issue of exposure.
Ah, so since I don't like him it must be that I subscribe to a narrower musical climate. Good call.


Architecture is a science, and music is an art. They might share a few principles here and there but for the most part they're almost completely unrelated. Science and mathematics have absolutes while music is probably one of the most subjective arts in existence. If you played Bach in Lithuania people just won't 'get it' the way we do, or if we took jazz to the rural areas of Vietnam. People just hear things differently, and music theory is a somewhat standard (but in many ways poor) way of organizing everything into a body of work that people can study and communicate with. And at that, it only works with 'Western' music.
This is derivative from the point I was driving at with the architecture analogy. In that field, without both skill and talent one would be pretty much gimped. In the field of music, people can get away with only having skill (this is problem with a majority of composers on both sides of the world...). They are still allowed to make music and make a living off of it, even if they are completely incapable of writing even a single original note (not even talking about Sakuraba here, this is an epidemic threatening every walk of musical life).

So, just possessing a skillset is even more dangerous in the world of art, because people will hire you for it. These types of producers will take whatever walks in off the street, so long as it has EWQL libraries and shiny expensive audio software.

[Jormungand]

...and to not give people the wrong impression, I did not start this topic. :\

[cubed]

I haven't read everything you all said, but... what are your debating ?? Opinions on specific composers ? Some like it, some don't. I don't see the point to prove one is less skilled than the other. I'm far from being expert on the subject, but heck it's like if someone is telling you the kiwi fruit is not as good as an apple cause it's not a natural fruit..... BUT I LIKE KIWI ;_; do I deserve to be bashed ? Please give me some explanations here.

[Fatigue]

Yes, I find this debate rather confusing, but nevertheless, it's a constructive based argument and the themes present are interesting and a good read. Let's just hope this doesn't become a personal attack on each other!

And Jormungand is right, he didn't start the topic as I split it from the lengthy 'Sakuraba bashers' thread in the aforementioned composer's forum.

[aznmusikboi]

Ah, so since I don't like him it must be that I subscribe to a narrower musical climate. Good call.


This is derivative from the point I was driving at with the architecture analogy. In that field, without both skill and talent one would be pretty much gimped. In the field of music, people can get away with only having skill (this is problem with a majority of composers on both sides of the world...). They are still allowed to make music and make a living off of it, even if they are completely incapable of writing even a single original note (not even talking about Sakuraba here, this is an epidemic threatening every walk of musical life).

So, just possessing a skillset is even more dangerous in the world of art, because people will hire you for it. These types of producers will take whatever walks in off the street, so long as it has EWQL libraries and shiny expensive audio software.


Yeah we did diverge quite a bit ^^'. I suppose now that I look back, it's clear that Jormungand wasn't even necessarily bashing Sakuraba in the first place, but it just wasn't apparent to me until we got deeper into the all the reasons why.

BTW I never meant the influence part in a condescending way, sorry if it seemed that way. You've got your influences and favorites and I've got mine, which is completely cool, I just think that in general people (at least those aspiring to be working musicians) should have detailed reasons for liking the kind of music they do, rather than using vague expressions like 'it sounds cool' (not pointing at you at all). But of the same token, those very same people should know clearly why they -don't- like certain composers/music, which honestly wasn't apparent to me in your first post (just a general 'i just don't like his music' animosity). Maybe i was just too picky. I honestly don't hear any other VGM composers doing modal / Barouque elements (with the exception of some FF stuff regarding the former. But that's probably only because I've been stuck with my old list of artists for a couple of years and haven't really ventured out into anything else.


It's been said that once an art becomes a business it's no longer art. I guess we've reached that point, at least in the most technologically/economically advanced areas of the world. However, I have reason to beileve that Sakuraba still has the capability to produce good, if not decent art (at least from everything i've heard).