Instruments/Sounds/Modules used in FFT?

[luminous]

Absolutely love this soundtrack as well as the game,i`d be interested to know what virtual instruments he used to compose this ost.
I`ve been trying Garritan Personal Orchestra but not sure about the sounds,you can`t even edit the adsr!.
Any of you guys compose? what do you use?
Cheers
Al

[Rain Corale]

Hi! The closest I got to replicating the sounds of Final Fantasy Tactics was with a Proteus 2000 Sound Module. I believe some of the music was sequenced in Digital Performer... To be honest, I believe that Squaresoft had the album mastered at a studio, utilizing a typical synthesizer, and analog equipment after the compositional process was completed for Sakimoto and Iwata...I believe the name of the studio was Smile Studios. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I use Digital Performer as a sequencer and often use the 'rewiring' capabilities with Reason. Its a great program! I also use Garritan, which is pretty good for the most part. I just picked up EastWestOrchestra Platinum edition...which is great and sucks at the same time because my computer isn't strong enough to run it properly. It cuts CPU resources like a hot knife through butter! (or something like it) Once I get it running properly, I will be good to go :)

If you do happen to find this information out, please let me know. I am very interested to know myself.

[Fatigue]

Expanding on your information, Rain, I believe that the mastering was done at DigiCube, while the synth programmer, Hidenori Suzuki, worked with both Iwata and Sakimoto at Squaresoft. I'm fairly certain this is how it works :)

[Rain Corale]

Expanding on your information, Rain, I believe that the mastering was done at DigiCube, while the synth programmer, Hidenori Suzuki, worked with both Iwata and Sakimoto at Squaresoft. I'm fairly certain this is how it works :)

Ah. Ya learn something new every day. :) Thanks man.

I find that the master mixes in Final Fantasy Tactics are excellent, among the best I have ever heard. Its good to know who's responsible for that.

Luminous, the orchestration in Final Fantasy Tactics *"sounds" like its setup for a small orchestra; very string heavy section (arco, lush, violin section 1 and 2, cello and basses) with a brass section (violent, explosive trumpets overlay effect perhaps, and a beautiful 'felt but not heard' dark and somber sounding tuba), a winds section (with a very predominate oboe, a flute perhaps here and there although much more scarcely indicated and a small percussion ensemble (kettledrums, bass drum, timpani, with hand bells such as triangles.) If you want to get a sound similar to final fantasy tactics in GPO, you are going to have to do major alterations to the effects settings for the VST's. Compression and reverb will be your best friends for finding the right sounds. At the end of it, there is little else to do but tinker to get the right effect.

*I say "sounds" due to the fact that there is no official FULLY ORCHESTRATED sheet music/score for Final Fantasy Tactics, which makes me quite sad. Therefore I have to infer/assume certain things based upon what I hear, which of course isn't absolute.

[Fatigue]

Ah. Ya learn something new every day. :) Thanks man.

I find that the master mixes in Final Fantasy Tactics are excellent, among the best I have ever heard. Its good to know who's responsible for that.

No problem :D Thought I'd mention that Suzuki was also the Sound Programmer for Xenogears (hence the similar sound), Shadow Hearts (alongside Hirokazu Kobayashi), Bahamut Lagoon, Koudelka, Xenosaga, and was involved (most likely synth operator) in Seiken Densetsu 3. He now works alongside Mitsuda at Procyon Studio :)

[Jormungand]

...with a brass section (violent, explosive trumpets overlay effect perhaps, and a beautiful 'felt but not heard' dark and somber sounding tuba)...
I don't think there's a tuba ever used...which track do you think you hear one?

[KujaFFman]

I wonder what was the role of Kenji Nagashima (credited as "Recording & mixing engineer") on Final Fantasy Tactics.

http://www.cocoebiz.com/mitsuda/english/friends/nagashima.html

In this interview, he says he worked on opening and ending themes. Does that mean they are really orchestrated?

[Rain Corale]

I don't think there's a tuba ever used...which track do you think you hear one?

:) Well the tuba could very easily be interpreted as a bass of some kind now that I think about it. However, in the example that I will cite for you there is a way the bass sound resonates which indicates a tuba.

(ex)

'Remnants'...Listen until about :52. The texture is already extremely thick and rich harmonically at this point and then that Tuba comes in at :52 (Hear that REALLY low but totally amazing rumble?) and just blows the socks off the piece...in a good way. It seems that the tuba is very sparsely used in the grand scheme of the soundtrack but to excellent effect. When it is used, its deep and its effective as hell.

[Rain Corale]

No problem :D Thought I'd mention that Suzuki was also the Sound Programmer for Xenogears (hence the similar sound), Shadow Hearts (alongside Hirokazu Kobayashi), Bahamut Lagoon, Koudelka, Xenosaga, and was involved (most likely synth operator) in Seiken Densetsu 3. He now works alongside Mitsuda at Procyon Studio :)

Thank you very much, my friend. :)

[luminous]

Didn`t realise there`d been replies,notification was off:)
Anyway,i think the sounds used in the ost are very good,and not easily emulated from anything cheap for sure,i got hold of some midi files and even in the new native instruments `bandstand` they don`t sound as good.
I wonder how much the music engineer tweaked/changed the sounds,i know every guy has has own idea of how it sounds right.Every time i`ve been in a studio the engineer has changed a lot of the sounds which changes the whole feel of the track,and not always in a good way!(no complaints here tho,just the opposite).Do you think the tracks are just mastered at end ?(with no sound changes by midi) i`d be surprised because Hitoshi must have some quality gear.
Hey Rain,have demo of East west Platinum Strings from mate and they sound amazing,you could easily use it for film work.I`m toiling to run it even on a 2.8 athlon with 1 gig ram lol.
Check this jawdropping solo violin from platinum strings http://www.soundsonline.com/cd_mp3_demos/229754.mp3
And epic sounding score here http://www.soundsonline.com/cd_mp3_demos/166221.mp3
So how do you write for classical after writing trance and ambient? :p

[Rain Corale]

I wonder how much the music engineer tweaked/changed the sounds,i know every guy has has own idea of how it sounds right.Every time i`ve been in a studio the engineer has changed a lot of the sounds which changes the whole feel of the track,and not always in a good way!(no complaints here tho,just the opposite).Do you think the tracks are just mastered at end ?(with no sound changes by midi) i`d be surprised because Hitoshi must have some quality gear.
Hey Rain,have demo of East west Platinum Strings from mate and they sound amazing,you could easily use it for film work.I`m toiling to run it even on a 2.8 athlon with 1 gig ram lol.
Check this jawdropping solo violin from platinum strings
And epic sounding score here
So how do you write for classical after writing trance and ambient? :p

Hidenori Suzuki has magical ears. :) Everything he touches is golden. I have a special Final Fantasy Tactics OSV which contains a few EXTRA tracks not available on the released OSV and it showcases a few pieces that are clearly, "un-mastered". I am guessing that Sakimoto and Iwata composed in a specific program, finished the track...handed the SF2 files directly to Suzuki, where he was then able to re-program the sounds get the most out of each composition.

EastWest Platinum is awe-inspiring...but as I said before it eats up resources like no other. I am going to need to buy a few extra DAW's just to run it properly! Thats going to be about 4,400 bucks...which is about 4,400 bucks more than I have! hehe...My G5 Dual 1.8 is no match for Platinum...that should be a given considering that EastWest recommends 8 computers to run it properly. Yikes. Thanks for the links, btw.

I am always in the mood for writing something...different! I don't know whether that is good or bad but its always a challenge to keep your compositional technique (process) from becoming stagnant. I take immense pleasure in writing in new styles that I am unfamiliar with and its very rewarding when you come up with something cool! When starting to compose a piece, I think its an important thing is to ask yourself what you want and then strategize a plan of attack. Organization is key. There is so much information available (regarding composition, mastering) that it sometimes becomes damn-near overwhelming! That's where it becomes increasingly important to have a theory or approach that you can refer to. I haven't been composing very long so I haven't found the best way to switch styles quickly and effortlessly. I guess thats one of the many adventures of composing. :) If anything, I never try to force anything. Its important to find the "soul" of a piece and do your darndest to let that "soul" shine through, whatever the style of music is that you are going for...

[Fatigue]

Hidenori Suzuki has magical ears. :) Everything he touches is golden. I have a special Final Fantasy Tactics OSV which contains a few EXTRA tracks not available on the released OSV and it showcases a few pieces that are clearly, "un-mastered". I am guessing that Sakimoto and Iwata composed in a specific program, finished the track...handed the SF2 files directly to Suzuki, where he was then able to re-program the sounds get the most out of each composition.

Suzuki is considered a genius amongst Sound Programmers :) About the Final Fantasy Tactics OST, are you sure it wasn't a bootleg? I'm not aware of any 'special' printing with special tracks.

The Sound Programmer's job is a mysterious one. My theory goes as follows: Sakimoto and Iwata composed the tracks, with Kenji Nagashima who supposedly arranged "Brand Logo ~ Title Black" and "Staff Credit" (which both are conspired to be live orchestral recordings) with help of the synthesizer operator/sound engineer Motoko Watanabe. After that process, the compositions are handed down to Suzuki who helps manipulate and expand/reduce the quality of the synthesizer operator’s work to fit the limits of the sound chip of the console or machine. But I can't be too sure how this works. Like I said, a Sound Programmer's job is mysterious...

[Rain Corale]

Suzuki is considered a genius amongst Sound Programmers :)

It is no coincidence that every single one of the soundtracks he has mastered, is pretty much a work of art. Each has its own character and the musical ideas are always presented in a unique/clear and beautiful light. Not to take anything away from the ideas of the composers, but he heightens the musical experience greatly. I will agree...He's a genius.

The Sound Programmer's job is a mysterious one. My theory goes as follows: Sakimoto and Iwata composed the tracks, with Kenji Nagashima who supposedly arranged "Brand Logo ~ Title Black" and "Staff Credit" (which both are conspired to be live orchestral recordings) with help of the synthesizer operator/sound engineer Motoko Watanabe. After that process, the compositions are handed down to Suzuki who helps manipulate and expand/reduce the quality of the synthesizer operator’s work to fit the limits of the sound chip of the console or machine. But I can't be too sure how this works. Like I said, a Sound Programmer's job is mysterious...

That doesn't make it any less intriguing! :D

Someone has to have the scoop.

[Fatigue]

It is no coincidence that every single one of the soundtracks he has mastered, is pretty much a work of art. Each has its own character and the musical ideas are always presented in a unique/clear and beautiful light. Not to take anything away from the ideas of the composers, but he heightens the musical experience greatly. I will agree...He's a genius.

Agreed, completely. I also left out a few other significant works, all with divine quality. Hako no Niwa (http://www.squaresound.com/albums/h/hakononiwa.html) had some promising and effective sounds and instruments, as did Moonlit Shadow (http://www.squaresound.com/albums/m/moonlitshadow.html), though the score was completely done with a live Jazz ensemble. One of his most recent works was the Itadaki Street Special for Square, and though I haven't heard it, I'm sure it would've been great, as usual. Oh, and he was definitely the Sound Programmer for Seiken Densetsu 3 (which had possibly THE best sound quality for the SNES). While I do prefer Ryo Yamazaki slightly more, Hidenori Suzuki is next in line of king of the Sound Production group of VGM.

But the thing about Suzuki is that he's one of the very few Sound Programmers that actually program the music to sound not only good, but to fit, support and sound like the environment (the game) surrounding it. Not even Yamazaki can do this (evident in most of his works, it sounds as if he really only wants the product to sound good and successful -- though no doubt he succeeds easily.)

[KujaFFman]

Who exactly consider him as a genius apart you, Harry?

[Fatigue]

Who exactly consider him as a genius apart you, Harry?

I can't pin point the exact whereabouts of how many times I've heard it, but I assure you, it's not just my thoughts! :D

[Rain Corale]

I've read a lot about Suzuki (what I could find of him, that is) this past week and his name is ALWAYS mentioned in a favorable light by many different sources.

I agree Fatigue, Seiken Densetsu 3 has excellent sound quality...so does Mario RPG and Bahamut Lagoon for that matter. There is very little information available on this mystery man...unless I am mistaken? ;)

[Fatigue]

I agree Fatigue, Seiken Densetsu 3 has excellent sound quality...so does Mario RPG and Bahamut Lagoon for that matter. There is very little information available on this mystery man...unless I am mistaken? ;)

Hmm, I'd consider Super Mario RPG one of his least inspired works. The sound wasn't up to scratch, but that's mostly the synth operator’s fault. Oh well, even Yamazaki has his weak days (*coughKingdomHeartscough*).

[Rain Corale]

Man, you are tough to please. lol
Super Mario Rpg is an excellent soundtrack in its own right. I probably enjoy it more for its compositional quality than for its sound quality though.

Is there a good place to find information about these unsung heros of sound development? I think its a travesty that they are not getting the attention that they deserve.

[Fatigue]

Man, you are tough to please. lol
Super Mario Rpg is an excellent soundtrack in its own right. I probably enjoy it more for its compositional quality than for its sound quality though.

Hehe, I'm not tough to please ;) For assurance, check out my positive review (http://www.squaresound.com/reviews/harry/hakononiwa.html) of Hako no Niwa. :p

The Super Mario RPG Original Sound Version, to me, is quite weak in composition (the fact that most tracks are undeservingly underdeveloped) and standard in sound production (compared to the likes of, say, Treasure Hunter G, although it easily ranks above Rudora no Hihou, both Soundtracks from the same time period as SMRPG).

Is there a good place to find information about these unsung heros of sound development? I think its a travesty that they are not getting the attention that they deserve.

There aren’t any good places to find information about them in English, but there are a few in Japanese. But stress no more, because very soon, I will write a biography of Minoru Akao and Hidenori Suzuki to be placed in the Composer Compendium (http://www.squaresound.com/composers.html) at SquareSound! Stay tuned! Oh, and Sound Production side of VGM is starting to get popular. A good example would be the Synth Operators at Square Enix, and how most of them have been given a short and brief biography, worked and credited on lots of high-selling games, and even upgraded to composer. Of course, this doesn't happen in a lot of other game companies, unfortunately.

[Rain Corale]

Hehe, I'm not tough to please ;) For assurance, check out my positive review (http://www.squaresound.com/reviews/harry/hakononiwa.html) of Hako no Niwa.

The Super Mario RPG Original Sound Version, to me, is quite weak in composition (the fact that most tracks are undeservingly underdeveloped)

When you say 'under-developed' what do you mean? I highly disagree...The composition in Super Mario RPG is excellent. Each piece, with a few exceptions... is well thought out and pleasing to listen to.
I find that the harmonic colouring is excellent, the musical development is fine (to be expected in a Snes Rpg, short. :( ) Anyways, many of the pieces are catchy as hell and have an excellent melodic underlining.



There aren’t any good places to find information about them in English, but there are a few in Japanese. But stress no more, because very soon, I will write a biography of Minoru Akao and Hidenori Suzuki to be placed in the Composer Compendium (http://www.squaresound.com/composers.html) at SquareSound! Stay tuned! Oh, and Sound Production side of VGM is starting to get popular. A good example would be the Synth Operators at Square Enix, and how most of them have been given a short and brief biography, worked and credited on lots of high-selling games, and even upgraded to composer. Of course, this doesn't happen in a lot of other game companies, unfortunately.

Excellent! Can't wait to check it out. :D

I just saw the Square composer compendium the other day. NICE! Unfortunately many of the Composer names are blanked out and no information is present on their history but there was still a plethora of information to keep me busy for a while.

Please keep me informed.

Thanks a million.

[Fatigue]

When you say 'under-developed' what do you mean? I highly disagree...The composition in Super Mario RPG is excellent. Each piece, with a few exceptions... is well thought out and pleasing to listen to.
I find that the harmonic colouring is excellent, the musical development is fine (to be expected in a Snes Rpg, short. :( ) Anyways, many of the pieces are catchy as hell and have an excellent melodic underlining.

Underdeveloped meaning that they are way too short and haven't been expanded to a decent length. This affects the desirable aspect of the Soundtrack and the reputation of it. More Square, or SNES, RPG scores have sufficient and passable musical development, but this one falls short. The compositions are fine if you like really simple stuff, but it's not 'great' musically. Easily one of Shimomura's weakest work.

[Rain Corale]

Hmmm...Interesting argument. Not one that I buy especially... The length is definitely the weaker point in the compositions, I'll give you that. But the same can be said for most SNES RPG's where the soundtrack length is seldom over 2 minutes. That being said, I don't judge a work by its length (especially when it comes to video game music), but by the quality of the content that it contains (and its proficiency at looping). There are plenty of soundtracks that have "Too" much development if that makes sense. I guess I believe in quality over quantity although its nice to have both.

(I feel deja vu right now for some reason...)

Anyways, if I may, I don't listen to video game music for the complexity of it, but for the ease of listening. Most of it is very easy to listen to and its not a huge time consumer. Thats appealing to me these days because I don't have a lot of time to listen to music anymore. If I want to get a workout then I will listen to Shostakovich or Count Basie. :) Super Mario RpG is not a work of genius but I enjoy it for what it is. When it comes down to it, it could have been better all said and done, but I choose to look at the soundtrack in a favorable light and as a success because:

1)the musical ideas are good, although as you mentioned not long enough...

2)They tend to fit the scene well.

3)The music is simple, but memorable. There is nothing wrong with simplicity in music. Sometimes there is nothing more rewarding than playing a game a decade ago...and still being able to hum some of the melodies from it. To me, that is special and worthy or remembrance and praise.

[Fatigue]

But the same can be said for most SNES RPG's where the soundtrack length is seldom over 2 minutes. That being said, I don't judge a work by its length (especially when it comes to video game music), but by the quality of the content that it contains (and its proficiency at looping). There are plenty of soundtracks that have "Too" much development if that makes sense. I guess I believe in quality over quantity although its nice to have both.

The point is, a large majority of the Soundtrack doesn't even surpass the 2 minute mark, leaving it repetitive and, often, mediocre. I don't judge music by its length, either, but the quality of a composition can also easily be ruined by the sole length of the tune. I believe there can never be too much development, so long as the composer knows how to wield it.

For the record, I don't often judge a Soundtrack for the length, but it's a main debilitating issue on SMRPG that can't be overlooked as easily as it's portrayed. And yes, simplicity is fine, but too much focus on it can sometimes be a fault.

[Rain Corale]

The point is, a large majority of the Soundtrack doesn't even surpass the 2 minute mark, leaving it repetitive and, often, mediocre. I don't judge music by its length, either, but the quality of a composition can also easily be ruined by the sole length of the tune. I believe there can never be too much development, so long as the composer knows how to wield it.

Well, by that reasoning...Final Fantasy VI wouldn't be a very good soundtrack either. Neither would Final Fantasy Tactics...Secret of Mana...
Well, pretty much every SNES RPG soundtrack would be mediocre and repetitive according to that particular reasoning. 90 percent of the music from those tracks is under the 2 minute mark, if not all of it.

For the record, I don't often judge a Soundtrack for the length, but it's a main debilitating issue on SMRPG that can't be overlooked as easily as it's portrayed. And yes, simplicity is fine, but too much focus on it can sometimes be a fault.

Some say, musically speaking...imparting a lasting melody upon the listener is perhaps the most difficult task of a composer. IMHO, MarioRPG is successful because of what it does well, not what it lacks.

[Fatigue]

Well, by that reasoning...Final Fantasy VI wouldn't be a very good soundtrack either. Neither would Final Fantasy Tactics...Secret of Mana...
Well, pretty much every SNES RPG soundtrack would be mediocre and repetitive according to that particular reasoning. 90 percent of the music from those tracks is under the 2 minute mark, if not all of it.

You missed my point; I'm not generalizing at all that the length in every SNES Soundtrack ALWAYS makes it mediocre and repetitive, I was specifically talking about SMRPG, and as for the second part, I was focusing on if the track lengths are, on average, small enough not to allow a proper 'follow-through' for each tune, and even then, it wasn't a generalization at all.

EDIT: This is getting off topic. Let's discuss the topic now!

[Terramax]

Wow Fatigue, you end up in arguements on this forum too >.>

My opinion is that the length of the music doesn't affect the quality of the music, only the enjoyment. The quality on Zelda: Ocarina of time isn't lowered because of the 1:30 tracks that really should've been looped at least once more over for many, but it will annoy listeners trying to getting into the full swing of it only to be jumping to the next track. Most of the tunes on that game are relativily simple too, but I don't hold that against the game, it's quite charming in a way.

Also I want a word with the guy who published the Guardian Heroes soundtrack too. Why there's no loop on the majority of the CD seriously bugs me.

[Jormungand]

I don't think the SMRPG score was bad because of the track length, I believe it was bad because it was bad.

[Rain Corale]

You missed my point; I'm not generalizing at all that the length in every SNES Soundtrack ALWAYS makes it mediocre and repetitive, I was specifically talking about SMRPG, and as for the second part, I was focusing on if the track lengths are, on average, small enough not to allow a proper 'follow-through' for each tune, and even then, it wasn't a generalization at all.

Ah I see. I misinterpreted you. My mistake. :)

I don't think the SMRPG score was bad because of the track length, I believe it was bad because it was bad.

Fine then. I challenge both of you to a ninja battle do the death!!! lolz

EDIT: This is getting off topic. Let's discuss the topic now!

Yea you're right.

[Terramax]

I'm like a shadow of the night...

silent and deadly!!!



Like a fart! Sorry, couldn't help myself there O.o

[Rain Corale]

^^^Wow.

(lolz)